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Paul: [00:00:24] Hello everyone and welcome to the latest edition of Insurance Business TV. I'm Paul Lucas, IB's global editor. And today you could say we're on the road even though we're virtual. Why? Because we're bringing you a commercial auto insurance round table in association with sovereign insurance. The last year has, of course, brought about extensive change for those working in the space with a host of supply chain issues linked to COVID 19, rising maintenance costs, driver shortages, and now, of course, spiraling fuel prices. So where does the sector go from here? How are underwriters and claims professionals impacted? And most of all, how can brokers thrive in this environment? And to answer all those questions and more, I'm delighted to welcome our expert panel from sovereign insurance. They are Kevin Stedman, the AVP of Commercial Solutions, Eastern Canada. Marcus Ouellette, manager of National Auto Underwriting. Kevin Dutchak. He is the team lead commercial auto risk engineering. And Abigail Bibby, National Claim Specialist. So thank you so much for joining me, everyone. Let's start out then by reflecting on the last 12 months and as I said in my introduction, it's been one of constant change with some key exposures developing. Kevin D. We have two Kevins. So I'm going to throw in that initial let me come to you first. Can you talk us through those changes? 
 

Kevin D.: [00:01:57] Absolutely. Well, it's been a certainly an interesting last 12 months, if not. Well, two years, actually. But I think kind of the key things we've all seen, especially lately, the reason the rising of fuel prices has had a significant impact not only on everyone, but also on on our on the trucking industry in that I remember at the start of the pandemic, we fuel price were below well below $1 a litre. They're now approaching $2 and in fact, gone over in some place. And that's that's an issue that's impacting the commercial sector as well. Theft and vandalism. It's it's always been an issue, but it's increased over the course of the last several months just because the pandemic restrictions have also. But on things such as there's not as much scrutiny anymore. So people that are interested in doing some damage, they perhaps have more opportunity to do that. So that's something that we're seeing, especially with things such as catalytic converters, which are being taken off vehicles at a great extent. Some of the other issues, they've been ongoing issues, but again exacerbated because of things such as pandemic driver shortages. As an example, this industry has had that issue for a long time, but with things such as vaccine mandates and like, that has even exasperated what was already a serious problem within our industry. So those are a few of the things that have been impact on the trucking industry in the last five months. 
 

Paul: [00:03:42] Yeah, it's, it's, it's a great start, Kevin. And of course the COVID effect as well. And we're seeing sort of a return to traffic volumes as well. I imagine that's having a big impact. Marcus. 
 

Marcus: [00:03:52] Yes, it certainly is. Over the past two years, we've seen a sharp reduction in traffic volume. And it makes sense that with that reduction in traffic volume, we've we've seen a corresponding reduction in claims and in claims frequency. And of course, the math is simple on that. When the claims go down, the frequency goes down. Our results have improved. They've improved over the past two years, not only our results, but the results of our competitors, the results of the industry as a whole, and the commercial auto side. But but the big challenge that we're facing, we're all facing is that this this was, of course, temporary. Now, as the COVID restrictions are being being eased, traffic volumes are starting to pick up again. And no doubt with that rise in traffic volume, we're going to see a rise in our claims claims frequency over the past two years. Interestingly enough, ah, severity did not decrease. In fact it increased over the past two years. So the combination of the increased claims frequency and the increased claim severity sets sets the stage for a deterioration and results. And so that's what we're expecting to happen over the next year or so. 
 

Paul: [00:05:05] Thank you, Marcus and Abigail, if I can bring you in as well. I imagine you've got some insights on the claims side as well. 
 

Abigail: [00:05:12] It's very interesting. Know when the pandemic started in March 2020. I don't think any of us really knew what we were going, what we were expecting or what was going to happen. And that's certainly true from the claims side. We didn't know what we're going to suddenly see a huge volume of claims or what claims is going to taper off. And as Marcus said, we pretty quickly saw a significant reduction in the number of claims that were coming in. But like Marcus said, we expect that that's going to change. And there was a very quiet period throughout the pandemic. But as the supply chain issues continue this, there's more pressure on these carriers to get the goods where they need to be at the time that they need to be there. We are anticipating that the claims frequency will pick up the claims department. They certainly, certainly enjoyed the lull of the pandemic, but we don't believe that it will last. 
 

Paul: [00:06:04] With that said, then let's delve into the challenges that underwriters are facing when writing transportation accounts. I'd love to get some insights from all of you into the role that brokers can play in easing those challenges. Marcus, I'm going to come to you first for this one. 
 

Marcus: [00:06:21] So underwriting is all about assessing the risk in order to assess the risk. We need information. And that information is critical. It's vital. And when we're talking about transportation accounts in particular, the information needs are vast and they're great. And in order to do that, to do the proper job in underwriting, we we need to partner up with brokers and brokers who understand transportation risks, who are who are capable of working with us and providing us with the data that we need. And not only the information can come from the brokers, but it can also come from loss control, from our loss control experts like Kevin Dutchak and his team. And that involves them going out, perhaps meeting the insured face to face, then doing some onsite surveys. So back to the start. Underwriting is all about assessing the risk. And assessing the risk means gathering and analyzing the information that we need. It's it's so important in the in the process. 
 

Paul: [00:07:23] Yeah. Thank you, Marcus and and Kevin Stedman, if I can bring you in as well. I mean, it's really important that brokers have a proper understanding of this sector, isn't it? 
 

Kevin S.: [00:07:33] It is Paul. And just add a little bit of context to what Marcus had mentioned. It's definitely important with the brokers that we're dealing with understand the transportation sector, that they're specialists in that field so that they understand the risks involved and know the information that we need to to get to the underwriting department. Also, the brokers have to sort of be a trusted advisor on that side for the loss control to making sure that they're educating the clients on the potential risk impacts to their business. And also, they've got to be an advocate, too, for for the client and insured. So making sure that there's proper communication with the brokers and the insurance companies with the underwriter so that they can properly assess the risk and understand what it is that's needed at the end of the day to protect them properly. 
 

Paul: [00:08:24] So some great thoughts there. Kevin, I'm going to open this one up to the panel, if I can. Anybody else have any thoughts on the role that brokers can play in easing these challenges? 
 

Abigail: [00:08:34] Yeah, I do, actually. And you know what? Transportation is a really interesting sector because from my perspective, as claims go, the transportation claims tend to be quite low value. You know, a transportation claim of 200,000 is is a big is a big loss. And because of that, I often think it flies under the radar sometimes in terms of the attention that it gets from both brokers and then also sometimes the insurer as well. These claims, though they may be small in value when it comes down to complexity, they can often be the most complex claims you'll encounter. And I think that that's often overlooked by brokers and underwriters and the sector as a whole. There are so many different moving parts that come into play on a transportation account that if you don't have people like like Kevin was saying, if you don't have the right people involved in this, that don't have the requisite knowledge, you're going to come up, you're going to encounter issues and problems and challenges from basically front to end when dealing with transportation accounts. So it's really vital that you have people who know who know the industry from from front to back. 
 

Paul: [00:09:43] Yeah. So it's a great summary. What, anybody else like to comment on this? 
 

Kevin D.: [00:09:48] Perhaps I'll just add that although I'm a risk specialist with sovereign insurance, my background was actually trucking, having driven truck earlier in my life, went through operations management to manage the small fleet at one time, and I was also involved in safety compliance with a couple of large dry and liquid bulk companies, something that I really appreciate when I'm preparing to do. A risk survey is meeting with the broker beforehand and preparing for that survey so that we're both on the same page. We both have an understanding of what we're both trying to achieve, and it's it really makes it go a lot smoother. So my advice to any brokers, hey, if I'm I look forward to contact you. I look forward to meeting with you beforehand. And let's set the survey process up for success. 
 

Paul: [00:10:44] You go, you're a man with experience. Kevin. I'm sure a lot of people are going to appreciate that. And if I can just move the conversation back to to you, Abigail, just for a moment, because I'd like to to focus in on claims, if we can. Do you think there's any difference in terms of the impact on claims between clients that actually truly engage in lost control and those that don't? 
 

Abigail: [00:11:04] Oh, absolutely. I can truly say that when a client engages in lost control, we tend not to see them come through the claims department. I mean, obviously, losses always occur. That's why there is insurance. That's why insurance is is required. But many claims are actually avoidable to a certain to a greater or lesser extent in particular, when you start to see claims to do with theft or sort of load slippage or movement within the container. Oftentimes you can take certain precautions that would prevent these losses occurring. And if they were to occur, then those steps would hopefully minimize the impact of the loss. And you're going to also see a situation where if you can properly prevent losses, that it will have an impact on your premium rates. If you have a good claims record through the use of good loss control measures, your claim frequency goes down, your claim severity goes down, your claim premiums stay down. And it's also interesting to see from another perspective which people tend to overlook. Oftentimes when you have contracts between shippers and and different types of content, these carriers the like, there are often clauses written into these contracts that specifically require carriers to take steps to minimize losses. And we often see situations where carriers actually overlook these provisions. Now, if you have a good, strong loss control program in place, those clauses will likely be kicked off. You'll do what you're required to do, and if you end up with a loss, you won't find yourself also in breach of contract as well. It's a very important piece. We see it all the time. Unfortunately, people just don't really realize what is included in a contract of carriage. That sort of takes me to the piece of the transportation document shipping documentation. What we often see in claims, and particularly in the transportation sector, is that there are a lot of different pieces of jurisdiction that are involved. So you'll have different requirements from one province in Canada to the next. You'll see different claimants moving from Canada into the United States. Different states will also have different requirements. And really knowing your business, really knowing what you're doing, where you're going, what you're operating under, what conditions, if you can fulfill all those different requirements you're on, you're on a good trajectory to minimizing your claims, impact and claims agency. And I would also say that taking us right back to the beginning, claims do happen. I mean, essentially, that's why I'm in a job. I'll be I'll be honest. But if you can show that you've done everything in your power to minimize that loss and that the loss truly was the fault of somebody else, then you can essentially pass that responsibility over to that other third party, which again, will enable you to come out with a pretty good claims report. So I've given a rather long winded answer to that, Paul. But just to summarize, as a claims person, I cannot emphasize strongly enough the importance of loss control, and I would really recommend to all parties involved that it be utilized as much as possible. 
 

Paul: [00:14:25] Yeah. Not long winded at all, I would say, Abigail. But I do want to just tap in to Kevin D's experience that he talked about a little bit earlier. Because Kevin, I'm imagining it's really, really important that drivers are documenting any issues here. 
 

Kevin D.: [00:14:41] And that's something that I have dealt with on occasion. I remember a a former client of mine that having a discussion and this was as a result of the claims person at the time saying, hey, don't pick you, put you over this with them. And so come to find out that at several civil claims there were loads of strawberries, as it turned out, and during the discussion came to find out that the drivers show up. They were picking these strawberries up down in California. He, the driver, would find them sitting on the dock in the hot weather. No, no fridge storage. The strawberries were already hot, already starting to deteriorate, and the driver was simply putting them on the truck and taking them up and that was it and started as well. Driver say anything. Was was there anything in this well. Well, no, he told us, but we took it as is. And. And of course a claim resulted. Come to find out driver was documented at all so that's a that is a key portion. If there is a if there's a product damage if there's a product shortage, it's it's imperative that they have to document that and contact their operations management to for further directions. 
 

Paul: [00:16:01] And I'd like to sort of delve a little bit deeper into it's a lost control in just a minute as well. But I'm just wondering, does anybody have anything to add from the claims perspective here? 
 

Kevin S.: [00:16:11] Paul I was just going to add and the client's perspective, I think it's important during the brokers responsibility when they're going out and seeing the client is just to make sure that we do get that proper information documentation to the underwriters at the insurance company level so that they can actually have a fully understanding, understanding of the risk involved. So if there is contracts that the trucking companies have or there's things that are different that they're hauling or things that need to bring up, they should be bringing it up that stage that enables the claims process to be handled a lot quicker and a lot easier through that whole process. So if we know about the information ahead of time, there's no surprises at the end. And that's when you have a terrible situation is when we're not understanding the risk 100% or things have been missed. So I think that's actually a very key in making sure that claims are handled properly to. 
 

Abigail: [00:17:03] There's an incredible amount of documentation that goes into a claim. And in fact, just the shipment of a cargo consignment has a large bundle of documents that are attached to it. And so many times the carriers, they just don't have the documents that they need. They're told, go pick up this load, take it from here, take it to point A to point B, but they don't realize all the documentation that needs to go along with that to protect them. 
 

Paul: [00:17:29] Yeah, I know. It makes it makes a lot of sense as well. And I'd love to just go a little bit deeper, like I said, into that that loss control issue with all of you, if you don't mind, I'd love to get some insights into perhaps some areas that are being commonly overlooked when it comes to loss control, because obviously, I mean, that's that's the key here to mitigating those claims, isn't it? Kevin D, let me come to you for this. 
 

Kevin D.: [00:17:51] First off, it's who you're hiring. So that driver, if you haven't already done so, make sure you have your hiring criteria in place for what's acceptable on a driver. Abstract. And I quite often see clean driver abstract and I always ask the question, what does that mean? What do you mean by clean driver abstract? Well, if they have a couple of violations of cable right there, that's not a clean driver. Abstract. It should specify what types of violations are allowable. Perhaps you allow maybe a speeding ticket from three years ago. That'd be fine. I suspect that most carriers are going to walk away from someone that has a very recent driving under influence violation as an example. So that should be spelled out in the hiring criteria and it should be followed for the most part. It's in this day and age where we're having such an issue with driver shortages. This is not the time for carriers to let down their guard because they may be hiring that driver that didn't meet their criteria. They bring them on because, hey, we need to have someone and they pay for it with a significant loss of that because of the wrong person. So that's a that's a key issue that I that I see fairly, fairly often. Similarly, when you're looking at hiring hiring a driver, do a pre hire road test and I understand you have a driver's all that drive is driven 20 years and that they know how to drive a truck. The issue with the road test that a properly done road test is not going to determine if they have the appropriate skills, but if they also have the appropriate behaviors. 
 

Kevin D.: [00:19:41] And that's something that even with the years of experience, we all know of drivers that just by going on the highway. Okay, well, that that driver he's he's being reckless and all that. That could be that 20 year experience driver. That's just so you know what, I don't care. No reckless driving comes into play and all that. The the pre road test done properly starts to determine what behaviors and do they have the appropriate behaviors for the job. Another thing is that lack of documentation, this is a key issue and we've already talked about in several ways already through this through this roundtable. But, you know, driver training has to be has been there for someone like Abigail and claims. I'm sure she's looking at from the perspective of if we don't have the documentation, what kind of training, how do how do we defend that person, you know, in the event it goes into litigation, something like that documentation is preventive maintenance. So if you have a preventive statement of states every three months, you do a preventive maintenance check and then the files don't show that you're meeting that interval. Again, that could work to the disadvantage of the client, especially if it's something that goes into a in the litigation on that. So those are some of the key issues that I notice that are fairly common in our industry. 
 

Paul: [00:21:07] Yeah, that issue around documentation keeps coming up. And, and Abigail, I imagine from the claims perspective, it's really important to know exactly what measures were put in place to prevent these things from happening again as well. 
 

Abigail: [00:21:20] Oh, completely. And you know what, Paul, just before I sort of get on to that point, I just wanted to go back to what Kevin was saying about the driver screening and the drivers and new drivers and, you know, shortages of drivers. It just took me right back to the to the to the awful Humboldt disaster, where you've got someone who's fairly new to Canada driving a big rig across the prairie provinces. I've got to assume he didn't have a huge amount of experience. And what ends up happening is you sort of put in motion a catastrophic chain of events. And I was thinking, Kevin, also of drivers say that come from Mexico, for example, they've been driving for 20 years in Mexico. They come to Canada and you throw them into driving across northern Ontario in the at the end of January. You can't predict that anyway with respect to claims. Claims do happen. They always happen. They will always happen. The question is, what can you learn from the claim? What can you gain from it as a learning experience to prevent similar types of losses happening again? We see more and more now in the greater Toronto area. Certainly the cargo is being stored in properly locked, secured, well-lit areas. I hope that gone are the days where you start seeing trailers being stored around the back of some sort of warehouse. And that's obviously because people are learning from claims frequency and claims incidences. They're learning, you know, this is what happens. This is how we have a large number of losses coming. This is what we can do to prevent it so corrective action can be taken. Hopefully we can prevent prevent further losses happening in the future. 
 

Paul: [00:23:02] Yeah, well, to Abigail's point, obviously, claims are always going to happen. But but lost control is vital. So any any anybody else on the panel have any tips that they'd like to to pass on around loss control? 
 

Marcus: [00:23:16] Paul, if I could, I'll jump in there. You know, as we talk, we're talking about training and documentation and proper management. And when I think of all those things, I think of of an insured having a very strong administration administrative team. They need they need help with h.r. They need help with documentation. And those are the types of clients that we want to partner with, want to partner with those insureds that are very strong on the men's side of things, taking care of the documentation. So that's that's very important to us in underwriting. And when lost control goes out and they meet with our insureds and they do the onsite inspections, it's one of the things that we're trying to get to the heart of is this does this client spend the appropriate amount of time on the side of the business, the documentation, the training, etc.? 
 

Paul: [00:24:04] And when we're talking about partnerships, of course, we need to zoom in on the brokers. I'd love to get your perspectives on the challenges that they're facing when placing some of these transportation accounts. Kevin Stedman, let me come to you. 
 

Kevin S.: [00:24:19] I'm just going to say out there right now, it is a very competitive marketplace. On two points. One, from the insurance company standpoint, lots of markets that are looking at the insurance to insure them and also the brokers themselves wanting to get to go after that business. So if you can imagine, it's a very competitive out there. One of the struggles in that competitive marketplace, too, is trying to obtain accurate information and properly communicate that. So what we're seeing is getting the information that we need from an underwriting standpoint from the client and then giving it to our underwriting teams. So the underwriters should take a look at it so that we can actually properly assess that risk to sort of see is it something that we want to insure and do we have all the questions answered from the operations standpoint? Where are they going? Because when it gets down to a problem with a claim, we want to make sure that there is proper coverage in place. A couple experiences that getting the challenges and getting some of the information is getting it from the client. So brokers understanding what it is that they need to provide to to the insurance company and getting that information properly from from the insured. Are the insured understanding what it is that that the brokers need and getting that information through to the to the underwriters so that we can properly assess those risks? We're just going to add one more thing. A key thing there, too, is we had talked about it a little bit there with Kevin. Dutchak and Abi and Marcus obviously, too. Was lost control. So lost control plays a huge factor in this. So making sure that we we partner up with the brokers and go out and understand those risks. So at that point in time, it's a it's a team approach. So what we're trying to do is get lost control and the broker going in to see the client and getting that information so that we understand the risk involved and making sure. So going on sight seeing those operations, the insureds are very proud of their operations. They will want to talk about it and why not sit and talk to the loss control people, the people that are going to help them in a situation. So getting getting out to see them, understanding their business and letting them explain it to us. Is it critical for us to get that information off to to the underwriters? 
 

Paul: [00:26:43] It's clear from listening to your talk how important it is to sort of get across the correct information and get it across properly. Abigail, are there any perhaps barriers that can emerge that can prevent some of that information being passed across properly between partners? 
 

Abigail: [00:26:59] Absolutely. Canada is an extremely multicultural country, and transportation is no exception. In the last sort of, I would say, 15 years, there's been a huge diversification within the sector, both in terms of the brokers themselves and then the transportation companies. We've certainly seen in the same situation just a general lack of understanding. And it's not for want of anything other than I think that there's something of a language barrier that that really is not necessarily always acknowledged. And again, it's when it's when things are in a time situation that they get tested, when everything is going along swimmingly and there are no claims, you never actually notice where the cracks are. But I have certainly seen on numerous occasions challenges being faced both by the brokers and their clients, where we're trying to say, well, this is what we need. And there's that lack of general understanding. I think that the industry as a whole, we need to really embrace the diversity of our industry now. We need to focus more on inclusion and dealing with all, all aspects of the industry in terms of allowing people to communicate and understand precisely what we need from our perspective. 
 

Paul: [00:28:15] Thank you, Abigail. If you don't mind if I just want to open it up to the rest of the panel as well just to get their thoughts. I mean, are there any challenges perhaps facing brokers that we've not touched on so far? 
 

Kevin S.: [00:28:27] The only thing, Paul, I would add to that is we just we have to keep in mind how this industry is changing. So with the diversity and inclusion, things are changing in our and our space. And that means that the brokers and the insurance companies, we have to adapt to that. And we have to move quickly to make sure that we're on top of things. And I think that is going to be critical in the years to come. 
 

Marcus: [00:28:51] But I would just add to that, like all industries, there's we have succession planning challenges to deal with. And on the brokerage side, I know they're working through it just like we are. But, you know, you've got some some long term brokers who have dealt with the transportation sector for many, many years and are truly experts in the field. And some of those those brokers have retired or they're in the process of retiring. I think it's very important for for brokers, and I know they're there working on this, of course, is to make sure that the folks, the new talent coming up to the ranks receive the appropriate amount of training and experience when it comes to transportation in order to properly handle that class of business. You know, on the underwriting side, the experience really does shine through. It's very easy for us to tell from an underwriting perspective if a broker has got the necessary experience with transportation or perhaps is a little green. So I guess that's I know that's a challenge that brokers are facing. And I and I think it's important for them to to continue to work on succession planning. 
 

Paul: [00:29:59] While we're on the subject of brokers, if you don't mind, I'm just going to ask each of you, as we as we wrap things up today, if you could give us all a tip or a piece of advice for brokers who are operating in this space. Kevin Stedman, I'm going to come to you first. 
 

Kevin S.: [00:30:16] I think a couple of things I would say is get to know your clients. That would be a key thing. Understand what their operation is about, understand their risk involved for their operation, and to make sure that we've got things properly covered and communication. I know we talk about it quite a bit, but communication is key. So making sure that we communicate with them on a regular basis, having it could be touch points throughout the year, talking to them. And it's not just about the renewal and their insurance costs and the pricing, all that. It could be other factors, value added services that we're that we're talking to them about. It could be contract reviews, loss control, health and safety and maybe just communicating and connecting them with some experts in the field where you may not be an expert in that field, but do you know someone that's in that field that actually could help those those clients with some operational things? So I think communication is key. It's going to when it's good and bad, it's going to make you keep on top of things. And then the client will understand that you have their best interests at heart. When you have their best interests at heart, they know that you're doing the best possible thing for them to protect them, and that when something does happen, you're there to look after them, I would say, would be the key. And one other thing I would add to it would probably be if you specialize in a field, that's probably a good thing to. So somebody who understands the transportation sector, understands the risks involved so that when you do go out to see a client, you can you can educate them on certain things that they need to protect themselves and make sure that they have the proper coverage in place. That'll be critical, I think, in making sure that you are that expert advisor for them. 
 

Paul: [00:32:10] Fantastic set of advice from Kevin. Abigail, what about you? Any tips? 
 

Abigail: [00:32:15] Completely. Just following on really from what Kevin said, there are always things in policy that will invalidate coverage. If you know what your policy says and your client knows what the policy says, then they can take steps to make sure that if and when there is a claim that they won't be on the wrong side of the coverage. It's it's it's critical, basically. And it all starts with the broken. 
 

Paul: [00:32:39] Thank you, Abigail. Kevin D let me bring you in as well. Any tips from. 
 

Kevin D.: [00:32:43] You? I. That probably the biggest one. It's been kind of an ongoing thing for me to say, hey, you call, contact me. I'm lonely. No, I'm just kidding. But that's the biggest thing is that let's have a chat. Let's set the let's set our mutual client up for success. One of the big things I try to do is I try to change the conversation from what can be sometimes an adversarial relationship to one where it's a win, win, win, it's a win for our mutual clients, a win for the broker. It's a win for us as the as the insurer. And that you know, and I guess the other thing is take advantage of what what we bring to the table. We have a lot of knowledge between myself, my my colleague Richard Perez, who joins me in doing the risk surveys across the country. We have between us a column about 60, 70 years of experience in the trucking industry in various ways. And I don't know everything, but I've picked up a lot over the years through through training, through experience and the like. And quite often I don't know the answer. I usually know someone who does. And we also have some great resources on the on our sovereign website that everything from risk insights on key topics of trucking industry to some tools that clients can use, such as the accident register that we've developed both for that both beats US requirements as well as a loss training tool which can be really useful in determining where we have these types of losses and what to what of the finite resources that we have can we put in place in order to prevent those particular losses and that so we're ready and willing to help any way we can. So that's that's kind of a that's kind of where we are. 
 

Paul: [00:34:48] Yeah. Thank you, Kevin. And I'm sure when this video goes out, you will never be lonely again. Marcus, no pressure on you, but this is a last tip, so let's make it a good one. 
 

Marcus: [00:34:59] Sure. And I'll make it a very simple one as well. But my tip would be, if you're going to submit a transportation risk, make sure you build and use a great transportation submission template. And that includes all the information that we need. Again, information is critical. We'd rather have more than less and some of the very the best brokers that we deal with, the brokers who are experts, truly experts in the transportation field. One thing that sets them apart is that they use excellent submission templates that have all the information that we need. So that's a very simple tip, but very, very important. Nothing makes an underwriter more more happy than looking at a submission that's coming in for a transportation account and seeing that it's very easy to follow through the submit submission and all the information is there. Everything that we need is at our fingertips and we can begin the process instead of spending time trying to gather different pieces of information which sometimes could eat up weeks of time. 
 

Paul: [00:36:04] Yeah. It's fantastic tips from everybody, I think. And my huge thanks to to both Kevin's to Marcus and to Abigail for bringing their insights today and to sovereign insurance for organising such a wonderful panel. The commercial auto insurance space is certainly going to be one to watch throughout the year. So make sure you reach out to Sovereign for more information. And as always, make sure you check back here for more knowledge on insurance business TV.