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Bethan: [00:00:33] Hello everyone and welcome to Insurance Business TV. I'm Bethan Moorcraft, senior editor at Insurance Business, and this episode will focus on the P&C program space, specifically what today's customers are talking about in programs. Today's channel will discuss what MGAs are hearing from agents and insurers, both in terms of challenges and opportunities on the buying side and from a claims perspective. And with that, it is my pleasure to welcome today's esteemed panel. We have Paul Sullivan, Executive Vice President Programs at Arch Insurance. And we have Scott Ornstein, vice president of Guaranteed Cost claims at Arch Insurance. We have Derek Davis, chief marketing officer at McNeil and Company. We also have Matt Hayes, vice president of claims at McNeil and Company. It's great to have you on the show today. So, Derek, I'm going to come to you with the first question. When you're speaking with agents about an upcoming renewal, what are the top two or three concerns that agents have? 

Derek: [00:01:36] It's a good question. So right now in the middle market agency space, we're dealing with the convergence of a lot of factors. So one part is the changing dynamics within those agencies, which we're going to talk about later. But then it's it's market conditions that a lot of these agents haven't had to deal with before. So so boiling it down, it's tough. But if I had to boil it down to three things, it would be, one, the cost of insurance going up to coverage reduction, and then three, volatile appetite changes versus just managing the risk. So going back to the cost of insurance, that's kind of in the eye of the beholder. So the agency makeups that we deal with are everything from larger commercial agents that have broad exposure to different markets, different appetites, all the way down to agencies that are just McNeil and company. So the context of that conversation varies and but it's all around the cost of insurance going up and how to navigate that. The second is pretty straightforward and coverage reduction. It can be everything from deductible increases, appetite changes, it could be cat related. There's a lot of things, but overall changes in coverage and then the volatile appetites not in the program space necessarily, but broadly speaking. And I can give you an example in our Animal Keepers program, so in animal keepers, we insure animal welfare organizations. They're non profit humane societies, SPCA and like organizations and within those. You might have carriers that insure a handful of them but don't have a dedicated program space to them. So what you're seeing is you're dealing with animals. It's inherently there's going to be a dog bite that comes about. So as opposed to looking at that, managing that risk on the front end, they're slapping on a dog bite exclusion or pulling out of the whole segment altogether. So when trying to work through a renewal. They're not sure. The agents aren't sure what direction to go because the appetites are changing so frequently. So I was to boil it down to three. Those would be the three items. 

Paul: [00:03:46] You know, Bethan, I'll chime in there. I think it's interesting, as Derek talked about that in the program space specifically, you know, as a program carrier like Arch is, we're not dealing on our programs directly with agents. We're we need to hear from from the managing general agents what their agents and customers are telling them. So the communication between the carrier and the MGA early, both in terms of overall appetite and strategies, but more importantly on specific accounts, because we can't we can't two weeks before renewal, a month before renewal, come out and say, oh, this is what we need to do now. So MGAs have to be talking to their agents or talking to the insureds so that they have plenty of time to prepare, especially today with everything that's going on with rapid changes and drastic changes in all all over their insurance, both first party and third party. 

Matt: [00:04:51] Yes. And then claims renewal time is when claims does tend to get a lot of calls from agents and brokers. The concern for the most part is a lost run loss from that accurately reflects their loss experience. And we at McNeil claims we view this as an opportunity to further develop relationships with with agents, brokers and policyholders. And that's a little bit different from other roles I've had at other companies. But we do try to explain as much as we can why we have the reserves that we have on files, if that's the question. And we do try to shut down any claims that might be dormant where a claimant we've been unable to establish contact with the claimant and the claim hasn't really materialized. And I think that that does that does have a beneficial effect on the renewal process. I know that the policyholders and the brokers appreciate that effort. 

Bethan: [00:05:49] Excellent. Thank you, everybody. Matt, I'm going to stay with you for the next question. And it's about kind of how you've responded to the concerns that agents have. You know, tell me a bit about your response and whether these concerns are the same and concerns that are being expressed by insurance. 

Matt: [00:06:06] They are. There is definitely an alignment of interest between the policyholder, the insured, the agents and DMG and the carrier. We do want to we we try to be very deliberate about our reserving, very thoughtful about our reserving. And, you know, to be honest, there are times when an agent or a broker does have concern about a large reserve, but because we approach our reserving in such a deliberate way and we we try very hard to document our reasoning, we're able to explain why we have the reserves we have on these files. We try to be accommodating where we can. And as I said, there are there are times when we do have claims where we've opened an exposure and we've made an effort to contact a claimant, but we've not been able to do that in, let's say, a year. And, you know, to help out the policyholder, we might we might shut that claim down, take down a small reserve, shut it down, but keep it open and monitor it. And in that way, we've done what we can to provide an accurate loss on that really reflects the policyholders loss experience at that point in time. 

Derek: [00:07:20] So yeah, to go on that point if you zoom out a little bit. Our foundation is surrounded by our long term agency strategies and then commitment to the segments that we serve. Commitment to them and then evolving with them. So you can't look at response in a vacuum. It's not just we're in this current set of circumstances, so we're going to respond this way. The way we respond and how we handle it is never changed. It's how we manage our distribution overall. So it's this is a relationship business, so it's always a relationship first. And with that, you have to ensure that you have constant and consistent communication. So that could be on Matt's team, it could be with any of the disciplines, but you have to have that communication. So so nothing is a surprise. So you can vet that out as you go through the year. And then finally, it seems pretty straightforward, but just mutual respect and ensure that with your trading partners you're on the same level that the conversations that you're having are expressing. It's not going to always be an agreement. You're going to have a debate, but you have that that foundation to have those conversations to better and then move forward. So all of that combined, it's not just looking at we're in this like I said, you're not in the situation now. We're going to handle it this way. It's all of those things and crafting a response over the long term. 

Bethan: [00:08:44] Great. Thanks Derek and Paul, how have you kind of responded to the concerns that you're hearing? 

Paul: [00:08:49] Yeah, so I think you put those two questions together about the concerns and how an MGA responds. I think what's important, particularly for for McNeil, is Derek and Matt are working with a number of agents across very different industries. Derek mentioned animal keep animal keepers and animal shelters. They also insure for profit ambulance companies, not for profit fire departments and fire and rescue, fire suppression companies, home medical products companies, a number of different types of industries that have very different needs. And so those agents might have very different concerns and often do. So that's, I think, why you're hearing a lot about communication and listening and then being able to respond in a thoughtful way because you take the pandemic as a great example. Animal shelters, I think from from what I was reading in 2020 and 21 were almost empty because everybody decided they wanted a dog at home to walk. Maybe, right? Whereas in other types of for profit entities, McNeil has a program for four bars and taverns were shut down a very different need than a fire department that needed to operate, and ambulance companies that still needed to then potentially take people with COVID to the hospital. So I think that, as Derek mentioned, that listening, asking your agents communication and then as the carrier, you know, understanding that there's going to be very different needs by program, very different concerns and impacts that you have to be listening to be able to respond to. 

Matt: [00:10:42] And if I could just add something to what what Derek and Paul both said about avoiding surprises, I, I spoke a minute ago about reserving and the the questions that often surround reserving going into renewal. If we do take the time to explain to an agent or a policyholder why a reserve is what it is, and we provide them with our analysis. Even if, as Derek indicated, even if we don't reach an agreement, the policyholder and the agent tend to appreciate that you've taken the time to explain your reasoning. And it's not something that's arbitrary. You're not shooting from the head. You've really analyzed it. And I mean, I think that that's that's a different and better way to do it. As I said, it's an opportunity to further develop the relationship. 

Bethan: [00:11:33] Yeah, that's great. Thank you. So moving on slightly, what current trends would you say are making the insurance buying process more difficult for agents and insurers? Paul, I'll come to you first on this one. 

Paul: [00:11:46] I'll speak from the carrier perspective, although you certainly don't need to be an insurance expert to know that inflation is certainly a concern for everyone and a concern for all different types of businesses. Proper valuation of your of your buildings, of your contents, of your stock, whatever it is, nobody wants to pay more for their insurance. But even more than that, nobody wants to find out that they didn't have adequate insurance when something happens. So you read any article about the cost of materials and the cost of lumber going up, that translates directly to the cost of a claim and the cost if you have a property damage at your place of business and how much it's going to cost to redo that. So certainly inflation and proper valuation on the first party side is up there. Social inflation on the third party side of the House is has been going on for a number of years. We keep thinking it has to come back to a more sensible level in terms of what the value of a of a of a lawsuit is when there's minor injuries, but it doesn't seem to be abating. That goes directly to Matt's comments about reserving when you really sometimes have to talk and insured through why something is valued as it is because it's hard to. You look at the damage to a vehicle and it looks like a fender bender and it maybe it is, but but that is a much different claim than it was five, ten years ago. So that directly impacts insurers, no doubt. And then last thing I would say is, again, it's across all industries. It's not unique to insurance is carrier talent retention. Right. Just the ability to attract and keep top people is something that all all areas of the industry are struggling with and certainly many carriers struggle with as well. And if you're not being proactive in that, I hear a lot of people complaining about the inability to keep talent and to find people. But if you don't have a plan in terms of how you're going to do that, you're just going to end up having the negative impact of it. And you have to have a plan. 

Derek: [00:14:14] Yeah. On that. I mean, that same talent issue, if you want to phrase it that way, certainly trickles down to the independent agency space, too. So generally speaking, it's a broad statement, but they're lacking bench strength. So if you look at agencies, 1 million a premium, 50 million premium, what's happening right now with the M&A environment around those agencies, they end up being bought out, absorbed into a larger agency. And with that, they're going to retain the customers that they have. But they're on the production side. The revenue minimums are going to go up, and then the middle market insureds space is not going to have the same availability for good customer service that it once had. So it presents an opportunity, of course, and we've capitalized on that opportunity. But as the middle market agency space becomes less and less and less, and then the talent isn't there, the bench strength isn't there. That once was. It creates a lack of customer service for the insureds in that level. And they're not they don't have the same amount of options from an agency standpoint that they once had. So we're seeing it there too. 

Matt: [00:15:26] And I can speak a little bit more about the social inflation and also the talent on the social inflation, something that we have at McNeil. And this is something that that Scott has helped to develop and has been instrumental in bringing about at McNeil is we have an early resolution program, an early resolution program. And this is not just it's not just a vague aspiration. It's something that we meet on with our claims teams every week. We identify new claims that have come in within the last ten days of last seven days that are candidates for early resolution on our liability claims. We come together, we come up with a plan about how we might bring about a settlement early. And we've had some real success with this. And, you know, Paul mentioned before the a fender bender that, you know, in three or five years could turn into something with real, really bad exposure. We we try to identify early what what those claims are and dispose of them early. So we don't we don't view our battle as winning a trial five or ten years down the road. We view it as resolving the claim as early as we can for a reasonable, appropriate sum. And there's another benefit to this, to policyholders don't like claims hanging around in the air for years at a time. And, you know, if you can explain to them, you know, that accident you were in 15 days ago, you don't have to worry about that anymore. That's taken care of. They really do appreciate that. And on talent, something that McNeil, the McNeil family has done is they've endowed a risk management and insurance program at Le Moyne College in Syracuse, New York, to cultivate a talent pool. And every year we have a summer intern from that program. I believe that soon, maybe next year, we'll have the first graduates from the program. And these these young people graduate with a degree in risk management and insurance. So we've tried to develop a relationship there that will provide us with a with a pipeline of talent, people who've demonstrated a commitment to the industry very early in their lives. And they're always, always good candidates for employment. 

Derek: [00:17:44] And yet to expand on Matt's comments around Le Moyne. So the idea isn't just to I mean, it's part of it, but not just to create a pipeline for for McNeil and Company, but to have other insurance companies on the agency side, varying levels of insurance companies to participate as well. So the resources are behind a program that will allow talent to flow through the New York state and beyond insurance business. And it's a great school and it's going to do a lot of good things for the insurance business. We're actually so McNeil and Company. As part of that, we're going to host an insurance day, which we're going to hope to do on an annual basis going forward, where we can bring in students, we can do mock interviews and try to get them prepared for a professional life once they graduate. So all around it's been a great investment and hopes to provide a lot of talent to the insurance business. 

Bethan: [00:18:38] That's very good to hear. I just want to come back on something that you mentioned, Matt, the early resolution program. It sounds very interesting in terms of kind of the claims process and social inflation. Scott, I know you were kind of instrumental in getting that program started, so can you tell us a little bit about that and the success of the program? 

Scott: [00:18:57] Absolutely. Bethan, thank you. You know, our relationship with McNeil is, what, 20 plus years? And one of the I think what I would call professional skills that we really demonstrate all the time is our ability to be actively adaptable to the changing markets that we operate in, just like we do in underwriting and other facets of the insurance business. So we have to be able to adapt to what we're seeing lately. I think we've talked a little bit about social inflation, supply chain issues. Inflation in general is driving up the cost of merchandise and quite frankly, the cost of claims in general. Even third party claims, even special damages are being inflated because of those challenges. So when you have a portfolio of claims like we do, which could be a small to a large scale claim, you have to be able to identify those cases. As Matt said earlier, much earlier in the process, we're going to have large claims. It's just part of the nature of the business that we're in. We'll identify those we all seen over the last several years, many nuclear verdicts that are out there. Astonishing what I would say, verdicts and damages being awarded in claims. So we're going to have to deal with those because that's just part of our business. But what we've approached also in a portfolio is how do I identify claims that may not be as severe? And we're dealing with people who do want to bring an amicable, agreed upon settlement early on in the process. It's important to say that because all of our claims are handled consistently having when you hear the word early resolution, it shouldn't concern anyone. We're managing every claim consistently, and what we've been able to identify are claims where all parties are in agreement to resolve the case early for whatever amount of money that is. That has proven to be very successful for us to kind of look at the bookends of exposures in the portfolio where we're going to have these large losses. And I have to add, from a personal experience, in recent years, I've never thought I was able to see in my career where we've had soft tissue injury type damages, where the plaintiffs bar is now preparing life care plans for to generate the value of the case. But that's the creativity of the plaintiff's bar that we have to be adaptable to both argue McNeil and manage each one of those situations. So this this program we started earlier in the year, we do share this with all of our business partners and it has to match earlier examples showing some great success. So we're looking for some great things to continue to come out of that. So we have also seen the challenges in the retention of talent and actually attracting talent in our industry. We see it every day with our external business partners. I did want to share a statistic that's alarming, but it goes to what Matt was mentioning earlier about the relationship that McNeil has with Le Moyne College. So the Bureau of Labor Statistics is predicting in the insurance claim industry at any given moment, 25,000 openings over the next decade. So the war on talent is out there for claims. And what's really comforting in our relationship and partnership with McNeil claims is that they're ahead of the curve. They've created this relationship with the college. We're going to have to start recruiting and building the future of claims handlers from this relationship. So it gives us a comfort that we're taking action and not waiting for things to happen. 

Paul: [00:22:24] I'll just add one example that I think speaks to what McNeil has done. Matt and I were in a claims meeting about a month ago, I think, and and we here at Arch, we hear regularly from third party administrators how they don't have the talent that they are so short staffed. They're trying they're doing their best, but they just don't have the talent to handle the claims volume that they have, especially. It's a double, double whammy of you don't have the staff that you need. And we're coming out of the pandemic where, you know, the backup of cases and so forth. And now the claims counts are ramping back up with vehicles and back on the road and so forth. And regularly we hear we just don't have the staff. We're doing our best. We're trying to hire. We're in the meeting with with Matt and his team about a month ago. And and we were talking about their capacity to handle more claims and their ability to take on more because of what they've done from a process standpoint and efficiency improvements and staffing being where they want it to be. So I think it just goes to again, we've talked about a little bit about the why, how they've done that. But I think just again, the results are while other TPAs are falling down and not responding on things sometimes to the staff, McNeil's not only been able to be adequately staffed, but able to actually have capacity to handle more. 

Bethan: [00:24:03] Well, that's great to hear. It certainly sounds like McNeil is on the right track there. So, you know, we've heard about inflation, like normal economic inflation, social inflation, these talent shortages. There are lots of challenges in the marketplace at the moment. What can MGAs do to assist agents and insureds to respond to these new and increased pressures that they're facing? Derek, I'll come to you first. 

Derek: [00:24:29] Yeah. So this to me, there's always going to be challenges. It's not going to go away what it is today. It'll be something different tomorrow. So back to what we were talking about with regards to a long term strategy, that's how you manage through the process is to communicate effectively and then have a strategy that you can always fall back on. So for us, specifically an MGA, it's, you know, the cost of insurance is going up. But that's that's not really the conversation. It's looking at the total cost of insurance as regards to the policy premium. But the value adds in the equation, too. So you have the loss, control and risk management with MGA, especially with us. It's tailored to the industries and is evolving with the industries that we're serving. So that's part of the equation to what Scott, Paul and Matt are talking about. On the claim side, we have adjusters that they're not just a fire department claim comes in. It's not like they're handling a fire department claim one day and then some random other commercial risks the next day. They're segment specific, so they're looking at those same types of claims every single day, and that has a value to the equation. So it's all that encompassing the long term strategy. And then when I'm talking to agencies on a daily basis, it's the old adage that offense is the best defense. And I'm not saying just go out there and sell business to fill the stuff that's going out the door. It starts with customer service. So you have to double down on your efforts with customer service and take care of the customers that you have. But but in addition to that. As you're out there with those customers, ask for referrals, do your best to try and expand your book of business and the program space. The MGA space allows a great opportunity to do that because all the value adds that are with the equation. So for us also to like we, my sales team, we're constantly out there. We'll do cold calling and prospecting on behalf of our insureds or half of our agents. I'm sorry if there is a difficult renewal, we'll fly or drive wherever we have to go to be side by side with that agent. So it's all falling back on. What your values are and how they're influencing your long term strategy and that commitment to evolving with the segments that you're in. 

Scott: [00:26:45] Jumping in on from a claims perspective, just one thing that I came up as Derek was sharing, sharing his thoughts on this from. To assist us, I think it's imperative that the reporting of an accident or a claim or even a non claim immediately is so important to the process. It allows for our claims team at McNeil to be able to go out and do the appropriate investigation. It doesn't mean we're going to be automatically paying out on a claim, but for us to get ahead of the investigation and secure the facts and the people that were involved in the accident, the minute an accident happens, it's really important that our agents work with our insureds to report those claims immediately, because it really helps the process. 

Matt: [00:27:26] And I can speak to what Derek was saying a moment ago when when a policyholder or an agent contacts, McNeil claims they're not speaking to a distant call center staffed by people who don't really have a relationship with with the company. They're they're speaking to a group of real people in central New York, many of whom I mean, our key people have been living with these programs for 20 years. And, you know, Paul spoke a moment ago about McNeil's capacity and its efficiency. Something that supports that efficiency is the fact that, as I said, some of our key people, in fact, most of them have been living with these programs for four decades, know them inside out, understand the risks, understand the types of claims that come in and how to resolve them as quickly as possible. And we also we also encourage our people in claims to think of themselves as a clearinghouse for specialized claim information where a policyholder might have a claim once every five years or every ten years. We we see these every day. So we encourage our people to think of themselves as an asset for the policyholder or the agent when there is a claim and to lend their insight. And if a policyholders anxious about a claim spend a half hour on the phone with the policyholder, explain the the regulation or the law that might influence the outcome, explain what's known and not known about damages and make them comfortable with the claims process. And this we've seen this work. We've seen this work. We see it in the feedback we get from policyholders and from agents. And it's very, very important to us. And it's something we speak about all the time. Derek mentioned culture. This is this is a very important part of the culture claims. 

Bethan: [00:29:16] So it's clear to me that claims handling is arguably one of the most important parts of the insurance transaction. That's been extremely clear throughout this conversation. What are agents and insureds expecting from a claims operation today and how can MGAs provide that. Matt, I'll come to you first. 

Matt: [00:29:35] Well, I think that. The way we have been living maybe for the last 20 years influences our expectations about how quickly things will happen. And we live in a much faster world now. I think that people think that people want problems to be solved as quickly as possible. So one of the things we, we, we, we do often when we have conversations with agents and brokers as Scott said before, we need to have claims reported as quickly as possible so that together the agent, the broker, the MGA, the claims operation can deliver a result for that policyholder as quickly as possible. Now, one of the trends that we observed with with the lockdown and it probably has something to do with disruption of the way people were working, working remotely. We had a lot of first notices of loss come in with fairly scant information. Of course, we follow up with the with the agent and the broker. We ask them to provide as complete information as they can. And we've been successful in maybe turning that around. We've had just in the past couple of months in the first party side, which is, you know, the thing perhaps policyholders are most interested in is resolving first party claims as quickly as possible. We've had I can give you two examples. In July, we had something come in. It was a first party property loss. It involved a vehicle hitting a fence, actually completely destroying a fence. The first notice of loss came in with every bit of information we could possibly want photographs of it. We were able to verify the facts of that claim the same day, and a check was on its way to the policyholder. We had something similar happen with in August with a tree that was uprooted and damaged the policyholders property. The first notice of loss came in with all of the contact information to sell phone numbers, an email address, the hours at which the policyholders contact person could be reached. Same thing we were able to establish on the same day all of the details of the claim. Within 48 hours the policyholder had their check in hand. This is this is very important to us. We know it's important to the policyholders. And it is it's something that we speak about the same way we speak about early resolution of third party claims. It's what we want to be known for. 

Bethan: [00:31:56] Excellent. Thanks, Matt. Some great examples there, Scott. What are your thoughts on this question? 

Scott: [00:32:01] Well, you know, for years, I believe agents and insureds really have looked to us for our experience in claim handling to help them navigate losses. It's been, you know, since the beginning of time with claims that we are subject matter experts, we are their first face when a loss happens. And today, as we continue to move into the digital age, our ability to utilize predictive analytics has become more common. And I think it's important to mention that because it really complements the experience that our claims professionals have. Predictive analytics in claims allows for us to mine historical claims data to identify trends and certain types of losses that positions our claims professionals to make, what I would say more data driven decisions on claims based on historical outcomes. That, coupled with their individual experience, is really going to allow us to achieve the best, best in class results for everyone that's attached to that claim. The digital age. I'll just continue as we keep hearing about it, it being the future it is now, right? So everyone, including Arch with McNeil, are working to really transform the digital the digital claims process so that we can have a more effective end to end process when it comes to the claim. And that match point will expedite the the claims experience for our customers and allow for them to see earlier resolutions and feel comfortable that we're meeting everything that we told them, which which allows for us really to meet the expectations when we first met with the policyholder. So that's what we're going to see. I think more exciting things to come with. Arch and McNeil claims that's great. 

Bethan: [00:33:43] So thanks, Scott. Now, Paul, over to you just to round this out. What are agents insureds expecting from a claims operation today. 

Paul: [00:33:50] I would say, unfortunately, what they're expecting is pain. I think I think the industry over the years has continued to lower the bar when it comes to the claims handling process and the claims experience. So unfortunately, I think what agents and insurers are expecting is a bad experience. They're expecting, as Matt said, a a call centre somewhere where it's just the next call from somebody that doesn't know their business, doesn't know what type of business they are, doesn't really care. Right. And and maybe they'll talk to a person. Maybe they'll leave a message and never hear back. So until they call again and call again. So as I said, the industry unfortunately has continued to lower the bar. I think what Matt talked about extensively is how his team is is trying to make sure that doesn't happen. And and they have. And so I think if you're a McNeil customer, I think Matt and Derek can also say you have very high expectations. Right. And and that's great because I think all of us, the higher the expectation of you, the better you're going to do. Right. If I think it's just human nature, if you, if people expect this much, you know, you might do a little more. And if people expect this much, you're going to do a little more. So I think that that higher expectation of what that experience is going to be creates a better experience for the customer and a happier customer and therefore a happier agent. So you can complain about the about the war on talent, or you can or you can do something about it. I always one of the one of the quotes I always like the best is that some people dream big dreams and other people wake up and work hard to achieve them. So it's you can you can wish that you would have a better claims experience for your customers or you can put together a plan to make sure it happens. So I think having that higher expectation of themselves at McNeil creates a much better experience for the customer. So now their customers, their expectation is they're going to talk to somebody who knows about their industry, who's going to get back to them, who's going to be able to resolve that claim quickly, as Matt gave a couple of examples and get a check in their hand promptly, if they once they've provided the information, they're getting a check back once that coverage can be adjusted and verified. So I think it's the expectation should be high. It is high for those insureds of the McNeil programs, and we're happy to be a part of it at Arch. 

Bethan: [00:36:41] Well, Paul, that would have been a great team talk for the industry. It certainly sounds like Arch and McNeil have a great partnership going, hopefully long lasting as well. You know, I'd just like to thank all of you for joining me on the show today. Paul, Derek, Matt and Scott, you've shared some great insights for our viewers, so thank you very much for joining me on IBTV. 

Paul: [00:37:03] Thanks for having us. 

Matt: [00:37:03] Thank you. 

Derek: [00:37:04] Thank you. 

Bethan: [00:37:06] Thanks also to our viewers for tuning in. I'm Bethan Moorcraft, senior editor at Insurance Business, and this was IBTV. Thanks, everyone.